00:00:03:06 - 00:00:16:17
Speaker 1
Sometimes the story we get before we turn on the camera is much more authentic and truthful and real, and then the story we get when when they go on air.
00:00:16:19 - 00:00:35:06
Speaker 2
Well, hi, Maggie, thanks so much for joining us. I'm Emily, and I work in the UK office in the communications team. So yeah, it's really exciting to get to sit with you today and ask some questions. Could you just start by introducing yourself and telling us a bit about who you are?
00:00:35:08 - 00:01:00:03
Speaker 1
My name is Maggie Morgan, and I'm Egyptian, and I've been making films for 20 years, and I've also been working with that seven for quite a long time. The beginning of I was a freelancer and, I was very young, and the very first film I ever made was shown on at seven. And so, yes, at seven has a very special place in my.
00:01:00:07 - 00:01:01:09
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah.
00:01:01:11 - 00:01:09:01
Speaker 2
So why did you sort of to seven to share your stories and your films.
00:01:09:03 - 00:01:33:21
Speaker 1
I think when I, when I first started, the first work that I did, was about, people with special needs in the Middle East. And this is like over 20 years ago, a little over 20 years ago. And at the time, nobody cared, really. None of the secular channels cared at all. And I was naive. I was young, I was like, of course, you know, we we have this great content.
00:01:33:23 - 00:01:59:20
Speaker 1
They're going to show it. And, I knocked many doors and then cared like, this doesn't bring advertisements and sets and said yes. And then they said yes to a documentary about female genital mutilation. And it just so happened that a Christian channel, cared very much about human rights. And so a relationship was forged then. Yeah.
00:01:59:22 - 00:02:26:09
Speaker 2
And now you're the head of gender and freedom of religion and belief, is that right? Yes, yes, yes. Obviously, gender inequality in Egypt and the region is very complex, a complex issue to deal with. It's it's happening in the home and in communities and in wider society. So how do you even start to kind of unravel that and start to make a difference?
00:02:26:10 - 00:02:58:06
Speaker 1
I think unravel is a really good word because it's just like very complicated. I think the idea of gender inequality, a lot of people are aware of that. A lot of women are aware that things are not fair. It's the freedom of religion and belief. But that's that was harder to bring into the discussion because, the way we raised, in the Middle East is to, be obedient and not to question authority if that authority is religious, even more so.
00:02:58:08 - 00:03:31:13
Speaker 1
So, when and also because, you know, we live in a predominantly Islamic culture, but also the Christians in the Middle East share the same culture. You know, we were the same somehow, in terms of the way women are treated and in terms of the, the beliefs and family life and so on. And so to tell people that, you know, what you've learned may not be, you know, truth with a capital T, and you're allowed to ask questions, and you have freedom to question what your religious leaders tell you.
00:03:31:13 - 00:04:05:06
Speaker 1
That's trickier. So when we started working on today, Not Tomorrow, we started with topics like, you know, For example, we started with the church that because, you know, that's closer to home. Although, again, these issues are common in all of society, something like domestic violence. It's prevalent. And so, women are being beaten. Sometimes they would go to the priest or they go to the sheikh in a mosque.
00:04:05:08 - 00:04:19:19
Speaker 1
And often the priest would say, you know, love bears or things. They would quote first Corinthians 13 and say, you know, love bears are things. And look how much Christ suffered for you. So this is your cross. You need to bear it.
00:04:19:22 - 00:04:22:06
Speaker 2
So it was coming even from within the church also.
00:04:22:06 - 00:04:47:12
Speaker 1
Sure. Yes. And so freedom of religion and believe me, means that in a in the program we tell women, you know what? Think twice. Maybe this isn't what's being said in, in the Bible. And, and I know that from some of my acquaintances in other circles that there's a lot of, similar work being done in Islamic circles as well.
00:04:47:13 - 00:04:48:14
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:04:48:16 - 00:04:53:17
Speaker 2
So tell me then, about your program today, not tomorrow. What's kind of the concept? What's it.
00:04:53:17 - 00:05:14:03
Speaker 1
About? The idea of the program was that we would have a truck and that we would go some like, community to community and talk about issues that had to do with what are the what are the things that nobody questions. Let's let's ask questions about them. Usually they're things that are related to religion, you know, accepted religious beliefs.
00:05:14:05 - 00:05:40:04
Speaker 1
And there are so many and and a lot of them have to do with gender. I mean, like I said, domestic violence, but also things like sexual abuse, people misuse the idea of forgiveness, you know, to perpetuate a lot of ongoing abuse. Also with things like, I mean, the obvious things, who's the head of the home, things like that.
00:05:40:06 - 00:06:07:20
Speaker 1
But, you know, one of the things that was really interesting to me as well is the way people explain, explain pain and suffering by misquoting or maybe not misquoting, closing out of context, certain biblical texts and other texts, to, to kind of, justify is not the right word, but to kind of excuse oppression and make people compliant.
00:06:07:22 - 00:06:26:05
Speaker 1
That is extremely disturbing. So the idea of freedom to think about what you're being taught in the religious institutions and make you make up your own mind, that I feel is a new thing that we're doing. Gender inequality is people are aware of it. They don't know what to do with it, but they're aware.
00:06:26:07 - 00:06:34:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. And have you had much kind of pushback on some of those things? Has there been hostility from even from the church or institutions.
00:06:34:13 - 00:06:56:18
Speaker 1
From different institutions? Yes. From the church specifically. Sometimes. I mean, sometimes our presenters would be in certain places in the street and you're like, oh, you're the people that are always criticizing the church and the religious institutions. We do have, unfortunately, that reputation. We don't mean it because there are a lot of religious leaders that we do host on our program.
00:06:56:18 - 00:07:26:00
Speaker 1
The don't they don't say these things, but unfortunately, the vast majority do. And we have one of our presenters, I wish you were here. She's always like, when she goes to church, she, I don't want to say she's not critical as in to find the faults, but, you know, she she she's a very intelligent woman. And she, she, you know, she has a lot she, she uses her critical thinking to, to analyze what's being said.
00:07:26:02 - 00:07:39:15
Speaker 1
And sometimes the priest will, you know, talk to the moms and say, look at you. All these kids are behaving very badly because you're not good moms. As if there is no dad. That kind of religious discourse, you know.
00:07:39:17 - 00:07:54:24
Speaker 2
So just practically done with the show. You you have this truck with a set on the back of the truck. As far been challenging to kind of film that way or, yeah. What was some of the practical kind of considerations of taking it out?
00:07:54:24 - 00:08:11:14
Speaker 1
The it's super challenging to film on the back of the truck for, I mean, Egypt Cairo is very noisy. Yeah. And when we go to villages, we have kids. You know, I have some pictures with, like, you know, I'm here in front of the monitor and there are kids all around me looking at.
00:08:11:15 - 00:08:12:14
Speaker 2
It's exciting.
00:08:12:16 - 00:08:39:21
Speaker 1
You know, there's those challenges, but but that's fun. That's okay. There are, of course, also the challenges with shooting permits in Egypt, which are increasingly more and more and more difficult to get. And, we've had we it's happened once that the live was canceled because we were asked not to film, and I don't know how much we can keep it up given the, the, the political climate in Egypt doesn't allow a lot of filming.
00:08:40:00 - 00:08:47:14
Speaker 2
And are there any places you go where it's kind of dangerous to be, to be there? Or is it fairly safe on the roads and.
00:08:47:16 - 00:08:49:06
Speaker 1
Dangerous in what way?
00:08:49:08 - 00:08:52:04
Speaker 2
Like if people saw what you were doing, what they.
00:08:52:09 - 00:09:18:10
Speaker 1
Yeah, like sometimes at one place we had, we had an episode on Palestine and on October 14th, yeah, we had an episode on Palestine, and we were in an outdoor location in a very popular neighborhood. And, we had a Palestinian guest who lived in, I mean, she came, we flew her over. She lived in Bethlehem and, a lot of the people were not happy with what we were doing.
00:09:18:12 - 00:09:27:09
Speaker 1
And, and they're like, you're Christians. We we didn't know you were Christians. And, you know, there was. Yeah, sometimes there's like, yeah.
00:09:27:11 - 00:09:38:20
Speaker 2
And the women you meet and then come on the truck and then you speak to, or any of them kind of hostile to your questions or is it mostly positive for kind of the way you engage with them?
00:09:38:20 - 00:09:59:10
Speaker 1
I wouldn't say they're hostile, but sometimes the story we get before we turn on the camera is much more authentic and truthful and real than than the story we get when, when they go on air. That's been an ongoing challenge, which is why this project is good, because we get to do a lot of work without filming.
00:09:59:14 - 00:10:05:05
Speaker 2
Yeah. Is that because they're kind of ashamed of things that have happened to them or embarrassed?
00:10:05:07 - 00:10:26:05
Speaker 1
They're ashamed or, sometimes they they don't want to bear the brunt of actually, there's no they don't have the freedom to voice their own opinions there. There are repercussions to them saying what they really believe. And, sometimes, you know, I understand we can't ask people to, to.
00:10:26:07 - 00:10:33:01
Speaker 2
You know, especially when they're appearing on screen, I'm sure. Yeah. It's brave to share their stories that way. Yeah.
00:10:33:03 - 00:10:43:07
Speaker 1
And it's brave to also say their opinions, the real opinions of the priest, of the share of of the, the the, you know, like.
00:10:43:09 - 00:10:51:15
Speaker 2
Have you got any favorite stories of someone who shared their story or even someone who's kind of changed their perspective from watching the show?
00:10:51:17 - 00:11:18:24
Speaker 1
Yes. I mean, what we've evolved when we started going on air, we had people, sending Whatsapps to the number or calling us, etc. and then and also we have the Facebook group that's just for women. And so there were people that were regulars and then slowly, we, they, they became so regular that we, we wanted to meet them, you know, like, who are these people, etc..
00:11:19:01 - 00:11:45:07
Speaker 1
And I think that a lot of them were really impacted by what we were seeing. And some of them now work with us because they're like, I would say, they're project representatives in their communities. Those are inspiring stories because they told us that, you know, that this content changed the way, they thought and they dealt with things such.
00:11:45:09 - 00:11:55:19
Speaker 2
Obviously your faith plays a big part in your work. What? So what is it about Jesus message of good news that you think these women most need to hear?
00:11:55:21 - 00:12:35:07
Speaker 1
I used to always, find a lot of inspiration from a verse. That's actually in Jude. And the translation that I remember is from the message. So it's probably not the most common translation of that verse, but I think, it's, it's a paraphrase to him who's able to keep you from falling. And the translation, I like to him that that is able to keep you standing tall, unashamed, you know, it's, it's it's like a benediction.
00:12:35:07 - 00:12:56:24
Speaker 1
Sometimes they use it at church, but the in the message is like, I feel like, the message of, of the gospel gives dignity to people, takes away shame. So instead of looking down and being broken, you know, it's a message that that helps you stand tall. I think the the one I like says, bright eyed and shining in front of bright.
00:12:57:00 - 00:13:00:00
Speaker 1
Something like that. I'm sorry, I, I, I could look it up.
00:13:00:00 - 00:13:09:04
Speaker 2
We can look it up later. So what is it that what have you learned in the last couple of years working on these projects?
00:13:09:06 - 00:13:46:12
Speaker 1
I think what I've learned essentially, I don't know if I was able to say it properly, but, I've learned to pray differently, and I've learned that prayer really matters. I know it sounds like a cliche, but, one of the things I remember very distinctly, the very early days of the show, about a year and a half ago, we went to a village, and in that village was a small church, and we were going live at 9 p.m. and we were all nervous because, you know, going live outside the studio, you could have a lot of technical difficulties, etc. and I just needed a moment.
00:13:46:12 - 00:14:06:16
Speaker 1
I went to the church, it was empty, and I thought, I need a moment on my own to pray. And as I was walking out of the church, there was this woman from the village, and she saw me. She's like, you came here to film? I'm like, yeah. She's like, can I take a picture with you? I said, you know, I'm not the presenter.
00:14:06:16 - 00:14:27:11
Speaker 1
I'm just behind the camera. The presenters are there. You can picture with them. She said, no, I want to take a picture with you. And I was like, okay, you know, whatever you okay? Let's take a picture. She's like, yeah, I don't have a phone. I'm like, okay, we can use my phone and we take a picture and I can send it to you.
00:14:27:11 - 00:14:49:07
Speaker 1
So we took a picture and and I said to her, okay, give me your numbers. Like it's a new picture. She's like, I don't I don't own a phone. And I was like, okay. And then she's like, I want you to. When you look at the picture, the picture is for you. When you look at the picture, remember that in these villages that there's a woman, her name is Damiana.
00:14:49:10 - 00:15:14:16
Speaker 1
She said that Damiana is praying for you and that we appreciate that you guys come all the way and so it's humbling to think that it's not like we're the people from Cairo that are coming to help these people. I truly believe that she prays for us. I truly believe that she, you know, cares that we come. And, I learned, you know, this is not a top down approach.
00:15:14:16 - 00:15:29:13
Speaker 1
Even with donors and even with supporters. I feel like, that's what I meant to say. You know, we pray for all of us because we're all like, there's no cure for being human. We all have problems, right? This is different degrees.
00:15:29:15 - 00:15:40:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. So that leads well into my next question, which is how our supporters can be praying for you and your work. Is there anything in particular you like some prayer for?
00:15:40:24 - 00:16:10:02
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think whenever you think of just normal human difficult situations that happen to human beings, think maybe or try to imagine what it's like for someone to be going through that situation with, a lot less rights, a lot less freedom, and a lot less money and a lot less access to healthcare than someone in a more privileged situation.
00:16:10:02 - 00:16:17:07
Speaker 1
A country. And and think of them and then pray for the two of you, you know, whatever the situation is.
00:16:17:09 - 00:16:19:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. So praying for us.
00:16:19:20 - 00:16:20:17
Speaker 1
For us. Yeah.
00:16:20:17 - 00:16:22:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. To get that. Yeah.
00:16:22:17 - 00:16:26:10
Speaker 1
I mean I can give examples if you want but yeah.
00:16:26:10 - 00:16:27:18
Speaker 2
Can you give some. Yeah.
00:16:27:18 - 00:17:03:01
Speaker 1
Like for example, just I mean because this is really what happens like when I travel sometimes to other countries with more freedom, more healthcare, you know, like let's say, for example, that, a woman in the UK or in Canada has breast cancer and a woman in a village in Egypt has breast cancer. She's going to the one in Egypt is going to be probably mistreated by her doctors.
00:17:03:01 - 00:17:27:07
Speaker 1
Yeah. That treated without any dignity, not given any choice. She doesn't have the freedom to ask questions or that it's a similarly difficult situation for women in a more privileged situation, but they have more rights and more freedom. So so when you when you when someone goes through something like that, pray for someone else who has it, a bit more difficult.
00:17:27:07 - 00:17:28:05
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:17:28:07 - 00:17:45:13
Speaker 2
A lot of, supporters might not be aware of the kind of discrimination that Christians, face in Egypt in particular. And it was the story about, the girls who might sit in the back. Is that quite common? I hadn't heard of that before.
00:17:45:14 - 00:18:17:04
Speaker 1
Yes. You know, in Egypt, you know, it's it's very hard to be black and white about persecution, if you ask me. And I'm an Egyptian Christian. Do I feel persecuted against. I would say no, I don't, but that my story is not the only story. And, yes, the I mean, these girls, this episode, we did this episode because these were some of our viewers that told us that this happened in their village and then we asked in another religion, it's very common.
00:18:17:07 - 00:18:17:13
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:18:17:13 - 00:18:19:15
Speaker 2
So they're asked to sit at the back.
00:18:19:17 - 00:18:20:01
Speaker 1
And.
00:18:20:04 - 00:18:21:14
Speaker 2
So there's uncover.
00:18:21:15 - 00:18:47:19
Speaker 1
Then the cover there. Yes. And they're also, verbally abused, you know, like as if they have lower moral standards than others. Yes. This is common. Unfortunately, it's still happening. And and the thing is, when we talk about freedom of religion and belief, when we talk to the girls, do you object? You can say no. That would mean that a lot of people have to say no.
00:18:47:19 - 00:19:11:22
Speaker 1
At the same time, it would mean that the parents have to, you know, also support etcetera. And for so many of them, it's is it worth it? You know, you have to choose your battles. No, but that's common. There is this in the villages, for sure. There's discrimination in more popular neighborhoods. This doesn't happen at a fancy, expensive international school, obviously, to a Christian girl there.
00:19:11:24 - 00:19:13:12
Speaker 1
But you know.
00:19:13:14 - 00:19:14:07
Speaker 2
Places.
00:19:14:12 - 00:19:19:07
Speaker 1
And the more underprivileged I mean, it's it's it's it's always the weakest link.
00:19:19:11 - 00:19:29:10
Speaker 2
Yeah. But then when those stories are shared on your program, other people will see it and they'll start to realize that's actually not okay. Yes, that's kind of.
00:19:29:12 - 00:19:43:24
Speaker 1
And I find that's why I use these interviews. There's so many more. I thought these girls were really brave. Yeah, really, because they're still in school. I mean, they're still going to the school. The ask them to cover the hair and sit in the back. Yeah.
00:19:44:01 - 00:19:47:05
Speaker 2
And what would happen if they said, no, they get beaten.
00:19:47:07 - 00:19:57:16
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Another thing, you know, actually, like beat physically beating what they call.
00:19:57:18 - 00:19:59:05
Speaker 2
Punish Pro punishment.
00:19:59:05 - 00:20:05:12
Speaker 1
Is still pretty commonplace in a lot of Egyptian schools. Nobody thinks it's wrong. Yeah, yeah.
00:20:05:14 - 00:20:10:21
Speaker 2
I think we do. Good to wrap up. Yeah. Thank you so much for speaking to us.
00:20:10:23 - 00:20:11:10
Speaker 1
Thank you.
00:20:11:12 - 00:20:12:14
Speaker 2
That was really interesting.
00:20:12:15 - 00:20:15:03
Speaker 1
Thank you for all these great questions. Yeah.
