Around the Table - From conflict to connection

February 11, 2026

Join us for another powerful conversation Around the Table, SAT-7 UK’s podcast where voices from the UK, the Middle East, and North Africa come together for honest, faith-filled conversations that go deeper than the headlines.

In this episode, hosts Sophie Griffith and Martin Thomas are joined by Dr. Martin Accad and Dan Morrice for a thoughtful and timely conversation about peacebuilding.

Together, they explore how faith communities are actively fostering peace in divided contexts. From inspiring stories of reconciliation to courageous leadership across the region, this episode shines a light on the hope-filled work already underway. We also reflect on what it means for each of us to become peacemakers in our own everyday lives — wherever we are.

These are the conversations that remind us of the hope, courage, and creativity shaping lives across the Middle East and North Africa — and how we can all play a part in God’s bigger story of transformation.

If you care about justice, reconciliation, and real stories that challenge stereotypes and build bridges, this episode is for you.

Show Note Resources:

SAT-7 UK: https://www.sat7uk.org/

Check out:

Dan Morrice’s Book: Finding the Peacemakers: A Journey of Faith from the Mines of Chile to the Deserts of the Middle East

Martin Accad’s Book: Sacred Misinterpretation: Reaching Across the Christian- Muslim Divide

SAT-7 UK Podcasts: https://www.sat7uk.org/pages/sat-7-uk-podcast/

Episode Transcript

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Pull up a chair and join us SAT
7 UK as we bring together voices

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from across the UK, the Middle
East and North Africa for

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honest, hopeful and thought
provoking conversation.

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No headlines, no sound bites,
just real people, real stories

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and bold ideas that just might
challenge the way we see the

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world.
So grab your headphones, settle

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in.
It's time to join us Around the

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Table.
Well, hello, welcome to Around

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the Table.
I am truly delighted to welcome

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our guests on the podcast today.
We are joined by Martin Akkad

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online and we have Dan Maurice
here in the podcast studio with

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us today.
And just a little bit of

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background for our for our
audience and for our listeners.

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Doctor Martin Akkad is a
professor of Islam and Christian

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Muslim relations and president
of the Near East School of

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Theology in Beirut, in Lebanon.
He's also author of the book

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Sacred Misinterpretations,
Reaching Out Across the

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Christian Muslim Divide, and
also a Satsanthan International

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Council member.
Wow.

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Yeah.
And Dan?

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Having me.
Author, teacher, podcaster,

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filmmaker who is joining us
today from Bristol and author of

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Finding the Peacemakers, A
journey of faith from the minds

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of Chile to the deserts of the
Middle East, which chronicles

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this amazing journey that you go
on sort of across the desert,

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crossing again 500 miles that
you tracked.

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Was it 3 months it took you?
Yeah, that's right.

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Wow.
I mean, so I once walked

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Hadrian's, Hadrian's Wall, which
is like sort of 73 miles.

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And I felt quite pleased with
myself after that, never mind

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500 miles.
And these days, Dan is writing a

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new book as well, coming
shortly, soon maybe, and working

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on some interesting films.
So I'm just thrilled to welcome

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you both here today.
Thank you for joining us.

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Thank you.
So we always like to start with

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a kind of light hearted question
to get to know I guess a little

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better and to warm us up into
the conversation and.

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They don't know about this
question do.

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They no, no, this is blind.
So you've both written books.

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If you were to read a book,
would you be an e-book kind of

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person or a hard copy?
Go on, Martin.

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Well, I've I've not bought hard
copy books for a long time now

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just for practical reasons.
You can take them wherever you

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are.
You can take them along with

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you.
Plus when you die, it's less of

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a hassle for you.
That's a that's.

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A great artist.
Yeah.

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That makes me sound very selfish
because I love a hard book and

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my poor descendants are going to
have to hopefully read the more

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clever amount.
Something about the smell of a

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book, the physical nature.
I'm quite easily distractible as

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well.
So if you've got, if you're

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reading on your phone and a
notification comes through or

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your mates text you about the
game last night, suddenly,

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whereas a book, there's no
notifications in a book, so.

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We were saying exactly the same
thing this morning, weren't we?

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Yeah.
Yeah, I, I, I love the smell of

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books.
Even new books are still good.

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But actually, if you've got an
old book, they're actually they

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start disintegrating and
releasing a chemical, which is

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why archivists and librarians
love love them so much.

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It's addictive, isn't it, that?
It it, it can be addictive, yes.

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It has to be a little bit
careful.

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That's that's the secret, that's
what they're doing.

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But I, I, I it's actually that
books don't have a notification.

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Nothing pings.
You can sit in a corner of a

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cafe and get yourself lost in a
story.

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But looking at the size of the
books in Martin's bookshelf, I

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might.
I can now see why he's got an

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e-book.
Because you need an extra bag

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for those, no?
One wants to be taking that very

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day.
I'll give up all the all the

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smell and emotional attachment
part for the sake of

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practicality and searchability.
So.

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It's a wise man, very wise.
So I think if we start our

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conversation today, we're here
to talk about peace, about peace

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building, about reconciliation
dialogue.

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Should we start off by thinking
about who or what is a

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peacemaker?
How do we identify somebody that

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we come across and how do we
recognize that person is a is a

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peacemaker or even in ourselves?
You know, today I'm going to go

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about some peace building.
How would you recognise that

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you've achieved your goal of
going about some peace filming?

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Go ahead.
Yours, Dan.

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Oh, thank you.
To be honest, I, I love that

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line in the Sermon on the Mount,
blessed to the peacemakers.

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And it's quite a unique word.
It doesn't come up very often.

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And what I've learnt a lot from
a Palestinian peacemaker, Sami

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Awad, who Martin may know, who's
taught me a lot about

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peacemaking, one of the things
he likes to say is it's active.

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It's not passive, it's not
peacekeeping.

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You're not sort of negotiating a
political stalemate.

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You're not trying to find a
bargain.

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You're bringing something
physical to the table.

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And you, you bring the peace
that you know that Hebrew word

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of Shalom, Salam and Arabic.
There's something, it's the

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presence of something which you
bring to a situation, just like,

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you know, Martin Luther King
always talks about light

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overcoming darkness, love,
overcoming hate, good overcoming

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evil, to use Paul's words in
Romans 12.

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So it's not just sort of sitting
trying to negotiate.

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It's bringing something that
overwhelms the conflict.

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And so that's hard.
It's courageous.

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It's, it's often having to let
go of some of your own stuff,

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egos or histories or whatever.
It requires a lot of courage.

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If there's one thing I'd always
say it's it's it's active.

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It's the presence of something.
And once you kind of think about

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it in that terms of framework,
then it becomes, OK, what is

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that thing I'm trying to bring
to the situation that will

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change the narrative?
It's different than every

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situation, but that is what
we're looking for.

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We're looking to bring that
Shalom into the situation.

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Yeah, I would.
I I think that as followers of

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Christ, we've been called to to
bring change, to make a

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difference around us.
And most of the parables of the

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Kingdom that Jesus tells are
about bringing change.

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You don't have to be powerful.
You can be a small and humble,

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but you make a difference around
you.

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And being a peacemaker is really
bringing change in a particular

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way.
And I think especially when

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you're living in the world we
live in, and if I may even add,

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in a region like the one I live
in in the Middle East, then

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really being a peacemaker is
living out the gospel and being

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very conscious that you are
called to make a difference.

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And the most significant kind of
difference and change you can

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make in this part of the world
is bringing peace.

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Martin, you talk in your book
about how peace building has to

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be about relationship.
In what way can we do we

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approach peace, peace building
with that kind of relational

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mindset?
How does that change our

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approach and how does that kind
of change the narrative?

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I think too often we, we, we go
all technical about, about

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making being peacemakers or
having peace initiatives or, you

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know, we got to tick a box on,
on an action part of a proposal

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that we've made.
And we lose track of the fact

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that peace begins with
relationship.

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I see a lot of theology and
certainly a lot of peace

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theology as part of an
understanding of hospitality and

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it's and hospitality is about
relationship.

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You don't have to to offer
anything.

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You're offering yourself, you're
welcoming, you're embracing, and

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that is the first step toward
peace.

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I love that you don't have to
offer anything.

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You're just kind of embracing
and welcoming.

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I feel like that's really a
posed in some ways to the kind

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of Western view where we we go
and we do something or we we

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bring something to the table and
we give something.

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Pose even.
Yeah, absolutely.

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But it's actually just about
showing up.

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And being being present, I was I
forget the actual verse.

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You can probably remind me, but
the verse that says as, as as

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far as it depends on you, if at
all possible, live at peace with

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one another and the God of peace
will be with you.

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So it kind of there's the
imperative to be active.

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So peace making is not passive,
it's active, but it's also not

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forceful or imposing.
And that that's a tricky 1 to

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navigate.
You talk about that, don't you,

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down in your book about that
verse as far as it is up to you,

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as far as it depends on you,
right.

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And how we have a responsibility
as, as you mentioned earlier,

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Martin, as we, we have a
responsibility as Christians and

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yet it's not forceful.
We can only do what we can do.

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Yeah, right.
We, we sort of lay that again,

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not to labour the point of the
table metaphor, but we label

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that, lay that on the table and
we, we leave it there.

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You know, we, we sow those
seeds, we scatter those seeds,

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and that's what we're called to
do.

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Yeah, I mean interesting.
I love what Martin said about

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relationship because it's I feel
like one of the greatest gifts

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you can bring as a peacemaker is
just listening.

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I always used to say when I work
to a purchase for communities,

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listening is loving and often a
listening shows great of respect

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and honour to hear someone's
story.

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But also I'm not just listening
to do them favour.

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I want to learn, I want to be
challenged, I want to be

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changed, I want to sort of step
into someone else's narrative

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and that is where it begins.
So I love the idea like

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combining that with hospitality,
inviting people around the

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table, saying what's your story
and then listening without

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interrupting, without Googling
something, without being

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distracted, just getting lost in
someone else's story.

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That's why I think peacemaking,
that's where it begins from,

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begins from relationship, begins
from empathy, and it begins

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from, I love the idea of just
almost losing yourself in in

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someone else's story, putting
yourself in their shoes.

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And that's where it begins, I
think.

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Yeah, and sorry, Martin.
No, I'm, I'm just reflecting

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also on the fact that really
it's not a set of activities,

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but it's, and, and it has a
purpose.

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And I think that in, in the New
Testament and in the entire

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Bible, we read a lot about the
concept of reconciliation.

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And, and this state of
reconciliation is the state of

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Shalom or Salam or Shlomo in, in
Syria, Caramec that, that Dan

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mentioned.
And so you are working towards

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or moving towards or living,
journeying towards a state of,

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of peace and which is this state
of reconciled relationship and

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community both within the
community and, and with God,

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with the environment around you,
with nature, with all of your

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integrated system.
Yeah.

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Absolutely.
And that you both mentioned kind

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of hospitality, and I think
that's something that perhaps in

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the West we can really learn
from the, I mean, obviously

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we've got a lot to learn from
the Middle East, but

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specifically Middle Eastern
hospitality is something, I

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mean, and it's something that
Jesus modelled for us, right?

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He gave us that example of
Middle Eastern hospitality.

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And I think maybe we've
forgotten some of that.

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Yeah, culture of service.
It's about Jesus kind of taking

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up the towel, you know, from
washing feet, serving, you know,

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Last Supper, sacrifice even.
Yeah, just that that modelling

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of a servant king, a servant
leader, which actually is

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modelled in so many different
homes.

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When they open their home to the
stranger, you know, just opening

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the home and say come and eat.
There's always that, that

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culture of hospitality that we
can always share.

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We'll we'll always have enough
to be able to have an extra

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person around our table.
Well, that speaks to your

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experience of the, the trail
angels, right when you did your

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well, do you want to tell us
about your, your journey and

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your kind of experience of, of
meeting the trail angels?

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Yeah, certainly.
So one of the things, I mean the

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backdrop to this is one of the
things I love about Jesus is

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that he was extremely generous.
I mean, he fed 5000 to tell you

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the stories of Jesus generosity,
but he was also vulnerable

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enough to receive hospitality.
And I think sometimes in Western

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culture there's that kind of
pride.

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You don't want to be seen to be
needing something.

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And Jesus was very happy to be
to ask people for a drink or,

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you know, a meal or whatever,
happy to be invited around.

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They'll be happy to give and
receive that.

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I felt like Kingdom generosity
and for me, I've experienced

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both.
I've had the honour of being

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able to invite people into my
own home and one that refugees

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coming to the UK and then also
the same.

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So when I was in the desert, I
relied on Jewish and Arab

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communities in Israel and the
West Bank who took me into their

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home.
So yeah, to answer your

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question, I did a sort of
pilgrimage, if you like, from

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Egypt to Nazareth in the
footsteps of Jesus as a child.

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The journey he would have walked
returning from his exile in

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Egypt as a child he probably
went, he was about two.

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It's difficult to know exactly
when, but many people say his

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first memories because he was
probably carried there, maybe.

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But his first memories as a
child would have been walking

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00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,080
hundreds of miles through the
desert, returning from Egypt

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00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,480
when King Herod died.
And I wanted to walk that

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journey to sort of step into his
shoes, the sort of vulnerability

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of his human life.
It's always a paradox to think,

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you know, the God who created
the seas, you know, paddled in

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them as a child.
I love thinking about the the

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wonder of that, but also the
vulnerability and he, you know,

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00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:36,120
in the desert, I had to fend off
wild animals and search for

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water and just keep going when I
was tired and all those sort of

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things.
And that's that's the journey

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00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,320
that Jesus walked.
And certainly, yeah, I was

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00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,280
looked after by families who
took me in.

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00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,680
I'd I'd come into a village
often you can sort of there's

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actually a trail in places that
you can text ahead.

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00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,280
And I had friends in the West
Bank around bets a hoe from a

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00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,720
previous visit.
So I could kind of, sometimes

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00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,000
you message ahead and sometimes
you just turn up in town and

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someone says you look lost and
tired, you know, correct.

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And again, you had the most
wonderful experiences have been

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taken in and looked after and
cooked for them.

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They want to know what you're
doing here.

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I want to know their life.
Do you sit around the fire or

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sit around the dinner table
dipping hummus and chatting?

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And often I'm amazed how deep
conversations can go.

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People are happy to challenge.
People are happy to encourage.

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It's a beautiful thing.
You can have a deep insight into

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a life of a stranger that you
met 5 minutes ago.

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But there's something about that
initial hospitality that says I

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00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,560
want you around my table, that
feels it gives permission to go

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00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,280
a little bit deeper.
And I learnt so much from

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ordinary people.
And then once you get to know

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someone, even on that first
date, suddenly you've got a

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00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:45,880
friend.
I have people been like, do you

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00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,040
want me to drive your bag to
Jerusalem?

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I'm like, that's totally fine.
But there's that love and you're

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00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,960
like, when you come to the UK,
you have to call me and you can

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00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,920
get a friend for life quite
quickly just by sort of letting

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your guard down, being
vulnerable, showing a bit

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00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,880
hospitality.
And then what I love about those

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00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,200
situations is when then you hear
in the news or you hear a

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00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,000
narrative about Israel or
Palestine or a certain country

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00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,920
or people group, Jews, Muslims,
Christians, atheists, whatever

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00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:16,280
it is, if you've got in your, in
your head a shelf space of an

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00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:22,480
individual, you cannot cling on
to a sort of holy negative

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00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,720
narrative.
And even if that narrative is

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00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,560
true, it's not denying conflict
or denying situations, but it's

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00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,400
saying, yes, but there's also
I'm a who I met.

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00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,480
And so suddenly a people group
becomes a face, a friend that

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00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:38,480
you recognise.
And that's so important.

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00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,480
It changes the narrative.
And I feel like one of the

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00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:44,560
things that I love is if you can
just get people to meet, even

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00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,040
they don't have to agree
straight away, But if people can

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00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,520
see in someone else's face
another human being, a friend in

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00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,160
a different life, if they're
born somewhere else, that

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00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,040
changes the conversation for
something political to something

300
00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,280
really personal.
Yeah, for sure.

301
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,440
That really reminds me of
Martin, your, excuse me, your

302
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,760
work about sort of Christian and
Muslim relations.

303
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,240
And you talk about how instead
of thinking about a kind of our

304
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,920
God versus their God, it's more
helpful to think about our

305
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,599
understanding of God and
Muslims, for example,

306
00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:23,800
understanding of God.
And as you were speaking down

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00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:28,400
and thinking about how we can
kind of meet people where they

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00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,760
are and we can just meet with
them and experience them as just

309
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,320
individuals, as human beings.
I think that kind of relates

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00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,800
quite nicely to your work,
Martin, where we try and find

311
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,760
that commonality rather than
kind of picking apart what makes

312
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:44,960
us different.
And of course, there are things

313
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,640
that make us different, but
rather than focusing on some of

314
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,720
these things, we focus on our
shared humanity or our shared

315
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,840
God.
Yeah, I, I, I've come to think

316
00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:03,200
about religions as narratives.
And I think if, if, if a

317
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:08,320
religion really is serious about
what it's saying, it's really

318
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:14,920
saying that it is, it is smaller
than the God to which it is

319
00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,520
pointing.
The religion cannot contain the

320
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:23,120
divine.
And and so in a sense, every

321
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:27,080
religion is a narrative about
the the ultimate.

322
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:33,120
Now the thing about narratives
is it doesn't, it doesn't simply

323
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,600
level the plane in the sense
that everything becomes

324
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,120
relative.
You know, everyone is very

325
00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:41,400
convinced of their narrative and
that's why their narratives and

326
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,040
that's why you maintain the
narratives rather than try and

327
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:48,080
merge them all together or try
and make one narrative stronger

328
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,440
than the other or overpowering
the other.

329
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,520
And, and for me, I've, I've
learnt a lot through through my

330
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,920
work and interfaith dialogue and
then through my work on multiple

331
00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:04,160
narrative history for, for
conflict resolution, that the

332
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,520
importance of narrative.
And if I can pick up on

333
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,480
something that Dan said earlier,
the question of empathy.

334
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:16,280
And so the, the, the importance
of working with narratives is

335
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,640
that when you hear the narrative
of someone else, then you are

336
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:24,240
practising empathy and you're
cultivating in among young

337
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,800
people also empathy to be able
to listen and active listening.

338
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,640
It doesn't mean they have to
accept the the what the other

339
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,320
person is is saying.
Of course they have to listen.

340
00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,360
They will learn things, they
will grow in their own

341
00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:42,880
understanding.
But narratives can be maintained

342
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,360
in tension with one another
without having to cause

343
00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:51,080
conflict.
And there are many extreme

344
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:55,680
narratives that are forming in
in the UK and across the world

345
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,400
at the moment where actually
active listening doesn't Well,

346
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,280
it seems to be absent.
There's not a lot of listening

347
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,600
to the other.
There's too much othering rather

348
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,200
than humanizing people.
And I'm interested to know well,

349
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,000
what are the models that
actually counter some of the

350
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,640
prevailing winds of our time
that actually are encouraging

351
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:23,640
people to to listen and to?
Well, to be willing to listen,

352
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,720
even in the first place.
Yeah, I want to sort of examine

353
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,240
some of those existing
narratives of peace in the

354
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,520
region.
I mean, I, we, we talked about

355
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,560
this last week, then we asked on
podcasts, but I mentioned I was

356
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,680
in the hairdressers the other
week and I mentioned to the

357
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:42,600
hairdressers.
She said, Oh, what are you doing

358
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:43,840
at work?
And I said, oh, we're doing this

359
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,480
podcast.
And I said we're having a

360
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,240
conversation about peace in the
Middle East.

361
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,480
And she was like, oh, well,
that's, you know, none of that

362
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,040
happening in the Middle East,
But that's, you know, that's the

363
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,480
prevailing narrative, but it's
just not true, is it?

364
00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:01,640
And I think we have an
opportunity to change that, not

365
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,560
change that narrative because
that narrative is inaccurate,

366
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:06,680
but to share a more accurate
narrative.

367
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:07,720
Tell a different.
Story.

368
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,440
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, there are certainly a lot

369
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,440
of of peacemakers in in this
part of the world.

370
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:21,280
And we've, you know, sounds like
Dan has met some on his

371
00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:25,200
journeys.
And certainly I'm working

372
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,240
constantly with, with people who
really have a desire for peace

373
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,880
from all sorts of backgrounds
and, and belongings and

374
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,680
affiliations.
And those are the people we need

375
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:40,040
to seek out.
And so, and, and maybe here I

376
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:45,960
can refer to, to this idea that,
you know, sometimes as an Arab

377
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:50,000
Christian, you know, the West
perceives me as belonging to a

378
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:55,360
minority or, or even we as a
church view ourselves as a

379
00:21:55,360 --> 00:21:58,080
minority.
But that's, that only works if

380
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,320
we're thinking about numerical
minority.

381
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,760
And I've come to the place where
I recognize and other people of

382
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:09,080
peace, partners and allies.
And that makes me part of a

383
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,560
majority, actually, not part of
a minority.

384
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:17,000
And it sadly is the marginal
minority that's constantly

385
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:21,560
seeking conflict and constantly
wanting to put oil on the fire.

386
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,520
But that's why I think it's very
important to reframe that to go

387
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,800
through a paradigm shift to
understand that we are part of

388
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,760
quite a large group of people
who are seeking peace.

389
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,440
We may not all know how to, I
mean, it's a journey.

390
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,760
We don't know how to get there,
but but at least beginning with

391
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:44,960
the desire and working towards
this state of reconciled

392
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:49,600
relationship is something that a
very large proportion of our

393
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:54,880
populations desire and we need
to tap into that. 100% I was

394
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:59,160
really.
I loved meeting people whose

395
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,280
desired peace, I always say,
with more zeal than the

396
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,680
perpetrators of violence.
And I think just practically

397
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,600
speaking, from the point of view
of a lot of our listeners will

398
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,800
not necessarily be in the Middle
East in in a, you know, a

399
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,680
conflict zone.
I'll be trying to reconcile form

400
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,960
enemies.
But we do a lot, a lot of the

401
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,360
way we consume news, I think is
quite important.

402
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,000
So because of the just sheer
quantity of information that

403
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,120
we're surrounded by, there's a
bit of a fight for your

404
00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:31,240
attention.
I think it's Simone Barley

405
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,480
recently said attention is the
rarest and purest form of

406
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,280
generosity.
And I felt like, I mean, it's

407
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,000
decent to what we said about
giving someone your love and

408
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,120
listening here.
But I feel like for us as

409
00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:45,280
listeners, it's I've always
tried to encourage people more

410
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,320
towards long form content.
So a podcast case and point

411
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,200
exhibit AI like or a book or
listening to someone like Martin

412
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,720
talk about his experience in a
longer conversation.

413
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,320
Because that's when you start to
you kind of, you know, the red

414
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,760
mess that comes up in a conflict
situation in a conversation, one

415
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,320
to one face to face that often
dies away after a couple of

416
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,040
minutes.
And then after a while, you

417
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,920
start to really hear the other
person.

418
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,360
You've got to get past that
initial initial rage.

419
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,880
And so the headlines that you
know, paper headlines are just

420
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:21,000
trying to grip you with some
kind of shock, shame, anger,

421
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,480
hate narrative.
But often if you read, if you

422
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,000
read a book, it's not like that
by the same with a podcast, you

423
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,560
can or a tweet or you never.
The shortest things are just

424
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,920
designed to shock you.
Whereas the longer form content,

425
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:37,720
you often get to know someone a
lot more.

426
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,560
So I'd say just one thing for
listeners, I'd always say try

427
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,000
and switch off the constant.
I only have social media one day

428
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,640
a week.
I've blocked it on just so I can

429
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,240
try and get into longer form.
And I always try and prioritise

430
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:52,640
longer form.
And then sometimes I put a

431
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,240
little post out from a snippet
of a longer form.

432
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,840
But I think the longer
conversation is what we need.

433
00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:00,040
And then just to pick up on
something that Martin said, just

434
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,920
to share the, the, the riptide
of desire for peace and then the

435
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,040
least is so vast.
But as he says, it's the it's

436
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:10,680
the minority that grab the
headlines.

437
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,240
But it's so important every time
you see a headline to think that

438
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,560
is not the majority view.
That's just the bit of I'm being

439
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,120
told and Sammy Howard always
used to say we're not a

440
00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:23,280
political organization, we're a
human one.

441
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,200
And most human beings in the
Middle East want peace.

442
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,640
But the political organisations
create and often they rely on a

443
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,560
narrative, a conflict, but it is
just not a reflection of the

444
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,440
majority of people in societies.
Absolutely.

445
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,240
I think with those smaller forms
of content, they're always

446
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,120
designed to be inflammatory,
aren't they?

447
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,840
And they lack that nuance, which
is where the real, yeah, the

448
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,800
real good stuff.
Happens, the depth comes out and

449
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:54,040
I'm just reflecting just now
that when I was about 16 I was

450
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,360
taught to pray the news.
I'll never forget that the lady

451
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,360
who just said don't just switch
on the headlines, but maybe 5

452
00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:08,120
minutes or the, the bongs in the
UK, as they say 6:00 news, get

453
00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:10,840
yourself an attitude of prayer.
Open the Bible, read a Psalm,

454
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,760
mute the TV.
But then as the 6:00 news comes

455
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,480
on, get into that attitude of
peace and of prayer.

456
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,240
And then maybe you can sense
God's heart.

457
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,360
You know, they talk about, you
know, let your heart be broken

458
00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:26,280
by the things that break the
heart of God.

459
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,280
And maybe as those news
headlines do come, if you still

460
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:34,280
listen to news headlines, you're
in that that posture of actually

461
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,800
sensing what God's heart is
saying into that situation.

462
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,680
And that's a that's a very
different approach.

463
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,160
And I still, still do it to this
day.

464
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:41,440
Yeah.
I.

465
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,200
Think it's very interesting you
picked up about God's heart, and

466
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,480
we often reflect on how God has
a heart for justice.

467
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,680
To what extent is justice part
of being a peacemaker?

468
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:56,520
Oh, it's a very good question.
Go on, Martin.

469
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:05,440
I think justice is is absolutely
crucial to reconciliation.

470
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:10,160
How important it is to
peacemaking.

471
00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:15,600
Probably if if those who desire
peace waited for justice to to

472
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:20,480
be done to them before engaging
in peacemaking, we would have no

473
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:29,320
peacemakers.
But, and I mean, I think maybe

474
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,320
something unique that we see
both in the teaching, the

475
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:39,560
lifestyle, and the model of
Jesus is his ability to embrace

476
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,880
a lot of injustice upon himself.
He rarely stood for his own

477
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,000
rights.
He certainly stood for other

478
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,440
people's rights and sought
justice for them or did justice

479
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:56,280
for them, but he didn't care too
much about justice for himself.

480
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:02,000
And I think this is the kind of
moral leadership that is needed

481
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:08,400
for peace to to for true peace,
peacemaking activities to move

482
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:16,240
forward.
So not seeking to have

483
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,000
everything you think you are,
old or not, to constantly be

484
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,680
fighting for your own rights, I
think is important, is an

485
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,600
important quality for
peacemakers.

486
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,960
But it doesn't mean that you can
do away with other people's

487
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,040
rights or justice for them.
And I think this is the place

488
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:44,440
where you're able to oversee, to
overlook your own benefits as

489
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:50,080
you become an advocate and seek
justice and peace for others or

490
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:56,040
seek justice for others.
And a third party always has

491
00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:02,080
more clout in seeking justice
for another person than for

492
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,480
themselves.
And I think that's an important

493
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:13,880
principle to follow, one of the
key principles of dealing with

494
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,760
the past, because I deal a lot
with memory in the past.

495
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:23,240
One of the foundations that is
affirmed by AUN theory on

496
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,320
dealing with the past is the
right to justice.

497
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:30,200
So the right to know, the right
to justice, the right to

498
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,440
compensation and the guarantee
of non recurrence are 4 pillars

499
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:39,560
that I've worked a lot with.
Sometimes you have to choose

500
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:46,360
between truth and justice and if
you and you have to decide in

501
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:47,800
the sense not you have to
choose.

502
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,000
You have to decide before you
get into it, is this going to be

503
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,440
an initiative that seeks truth
knowledge, or is this going to

504
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,440
be an initiative that seeks
justice?

505
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:04,560
And unfortunately, if you go
with both, you will usually lose

506
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:09,280
because those who are seeking
truth will not get truth if you

507
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,320
seek justice from the source of
truth.

508
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:18,160
And those who seek justice will
often remain silent about truth.

509
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:21,920
Yeah.
And, and.

510
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,920
And so it depends on the process
that you're going for, whether

511
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:29,800
it's a judicial one or whether
it is one like, you know,

512
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,800
knowing what happened.
That that's fascinating because

513
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,120
I was just reflecting, having
been brought up in the, in the

514
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,560
midst of with apartheid going on
South Africa and the kind of

515
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,400
truth and reconciliation
processes, and then then again

516
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,600
in Northern Ireland.
And I think what you say is

517
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:52,400
really is really true, yet those
processes can't always coexist.

518
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,360
But what you're alluding to
there is slightly different to

519
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,920
the whole thing of peacemaking
when actually I have an issue

520
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,720
with someone.
So it's personal to me and I'm

521
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,720
seeking peace or reconciliation.
Someone's done something to me

522
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,120
or there's an issue.
But what you're also talking

523
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:14,440
about is people being peace
mediators, third parties coming

524
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,480
into media between other groups.
And those are two very

525
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,320
interesting concepts where it
can be a peacemaker, where it's

526
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,680
something that's very personal,
but also the the challenge to be

527
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,680
peacemakers where there are
other parties involved and how

528
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,720
what is Our Calling into that
space.

529
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,160
Yeah, I think you make it.
Sorry.

530
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:38,040
Make a really good point about
how we can often see peace,

531
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:45,640
peace activities, so to speak,
in regions experiencing conflict

532
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,240
or experiencing war or, or what
have you.

533
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,880
They can feel quite ethereal and
distant.

534
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,160
Obviously not for those
individuals living that reality

535
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,800
day-to-day, but certainly here
in the UK, we can feel sort of

536
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,560
consumed by, Oh, yes, that's
very regretful, but it feels

537
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,520
very distant.
And yet it's not just some

538
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,400
people who are called to be
peacemakers, right?

539
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,480
We're all called to be
peacemakers.

540
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,640
And I think also, sorry.
Yeah.

541
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,800
Well, yeah, conflict isn't
necessarily something that just

542
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:23,720
happens in kind of areas
experiencing violence, but we

543
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,000
all have kind of conflicts and
fractions and things within,

544
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,320
within ourselves, within our
communities, within, you know,

545
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:35,400
people that we encounter.
And part of that is about how

546
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,960
can we be peacemakers in our own
community, in our own lives,

547
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,120
with ourselves, with God.
And you know, if people are

548
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,000
thinking what can I do
practically to be a peacemaker,

549
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,680
how would we, how would we
respond to that?

550
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,160
Yeah, good question.
There's a story about Shane

551
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,720
Clayborne, the activist.
I love when someone asked him

552
00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:03,240
what cause should I take up.
It's quite a sort of social

553
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,480
justice idea.
And he said don't worry about a

554
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,080
cause, Choose a people group
that's vulnerable or overlooked

555
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,000
and fall in love with them.
And then a cause will choose

556
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,200
itself.
And reminds me of a book by

557
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,680
Timothy Keller called The
Freedom of Self Forgetfulness.

558
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,840
I love that concept of of just
getting lost in someone else's

559
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,840
story, picking someone else's
fight if you like.

560
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,920
And sometimes it can feel like
sacrifice because the way we're,

561
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,040
you know, we're very much the
selfie generation project self,

562
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:30,360
anything that's not about
ourself.

563
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,480
It feels like a sacrifice, But
actually there's a there's a

564
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,360
freedom in getting outside of
your ego that I think is there's

565
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:42,200
a liberty to that, which I feel
is is not often communicated.

566
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,560
And certainly what Martin was
saying about Jesus, the way he

567
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,160
it was very sacrificial in his
own, like he wasn't defending

568
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,120
his own rights, but he would
pick up the cause of someone

569
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,800
else.
I found that so powerful, so

570
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,240
often compare, you know, his,
his prayer on the cross, looking

571
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,280
at the the thief next to him
today you'll be with me in

572
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,360
paradise.
Or looking at the soldiers who

573
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,720
are literally driving nails
through his wrists saying

574
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,680
father, forgive them, They don't
know what they're doing.

575
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,520
Like, that is a ludicrous level
of mercy.

576
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,840
And yeah, he was quite happy to
turn the tables over in the

577
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,760
temple and start a riot to
defend the poor.

578
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,719
He said, you know, you've,
you've made my father's house a

579
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:22,960
den of robbers.
And he was taking up the cause

580
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,159
of the poor and oppressed.
You know, the the corrupt temple

581
00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:29,480
leadership at the time were
making a buck out of the poorest

582
00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:31,639
Jewish pilgrims.
And he was, he was taking up

583
00:34:31,639 --> 00:34:35,480
that cause or he was stepping in
to defend a woman from a a

584
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,760
crowd, you know, armed with
rocks.

585
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,800
You can imagine and you probably
know the line that he is without

586
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,199
sending cast the first stone.
Very smart response.

587
00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:45,600
You can imagine the rocks all
dropping and people walking away

588
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,480
like he was happy to step into a
situation of conflict to defend

589
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,080
someone else.
And yet when he was on the

590
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,880
firing line, he let it go.
Wow, I'd love to be more like

591
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:56,560
that.
Yeah.

592
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,080
And interesting that you can
mention women there and Jesus

593
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,520
often kind of picking up the
cause of women and women are so

594
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,480
often key.
They have so key roles in in the

595
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,760
peacemaking, peace building
process and yet so often

596
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:12,880
overlooked.
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought

597
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:14,800
up.
I wasn't sure we get a chance to

598
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:20,080
to talk about it, but women are
so often considered a sort of

599
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:24,320
optional extra in the in the
more formal kind of peace

600
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,800
building process.
And it's often seen that, you

601
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,160
know, if women are going to
hamper our ability to make this

602
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,720
peace deal, then let's not go
there because that, you know,

603
00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:37,080
that would jeopardize the peace,
But it's a peace that only

604
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,120
effects kind of 49% of the
population.

605
00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:40,640
Is that ever really a true
peace?

606
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:45,360
And as you were saying, done.
Jesus says like, no, the, the,

607
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:51,720
the rights of all of my people
or the, or just in general, all

608
00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:54,960
of all of my people.
They, they all matter, not just

609
00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:58,240
a certain group of people.
And I think that's something we

610
00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:03,840
can bring into our conversations
and our perspectives on peace

611
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,120
more generally.
And I know Martin, you kind of

612
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,320
pull out the words of the
prophet Micah where he talks

613
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,920
about mercy and justice and
humility.

614
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:17,440
And that extends to all people,
not just, you know, the, the,

615
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,960
the sort of info group of the
day, you know.

616
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,560
Well, well, I, I think we've
been talking about the kind of

617
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:30,040
peace for, for the past 45
minutes or so.

618
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,200
That requires relationship and
hospitality.

619
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:41,320
And I know a lot of women that
are masterful in relation

620
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:51,160
building and in hospitality in a
way that I could never, never

621
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:56,200
manage myself.
One of my most my closest

622
00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:00,560
collaborator and colleague in
all the initiatives that I

623
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:07,840
undertake is a woman and she
really is a door opener when it

624
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:13,440
comes to relationship building
and practising hospitality.

625
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:20,240
She's my go to person for for
everything that where I need

626
00:37:20,240 --> 00:37:25,840
guidance in those areas and we
work very closely side by side

627
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,080
in all these initiatives.
Yeah, often.

628
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,040
I mean, there's this joke at my
church.

629
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,400
I can't get through a sermon
without quoting Corrie Tamboom,

630
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:38,280
but I do.
I find a, a lot of the

631
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,560
peacemaking that I kind of what
I've talked on and I learned

632
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,600
about, I'm off.
She's quite instructive to me.

633
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:47,560
I The Hiding Place is a book I
go back to, but I feel like in

634
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:49,360
her particularly, and I see
there's lots of women as a

635
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,800
courage to sort with.
Partly it's letting go of your

636
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,320
own ego and we've talked about
that, but partly there's

637
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,360
something about peacemaking that
just does require courage.

638
00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:03,240
And I've met a lot of women who
seem to have that fight, that

639
00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:07,160
drive that courage to be like,
I'm not letting this go.

640
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,800
We need I can't give up.
I'm not, you know.

641
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,640
And so the Corey Tambu, I mean,
she was in the most horrendous

642
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,440
of circumstances and a
concentration camp, but that's

643
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,480
because she'd taken up the fight
of someone else.

644
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,040
She is a Christian was choosing,
but like we said about Jesus

645
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,240
taking up someone else's fight
like I'm going to fight of the

646
00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:26,080
Jewish people.
And it's interesting.

647
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,760
Her father Casper, he was
actually they were going to let

648
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,640
him off when they caught him.
They said, and he was very, very

649
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,320
respected and they said, you
know, you go home old man, and

650
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,160
he said if you if I go home, I'm
just going to rescue more Jews.

651
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,280
They said fine, we're going to
have to send you.

652
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,320
It was that drive and I actually
think it was even stronger in

653
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,680
his daughters in Betsy and in
Corrie because he died quite

654
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,000
quickly by the sounds of it.
But they were there for so long

655
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,520
and that something about
pioneering in the worst of

656
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,040
circumstances where you never
give up hope, you never give up

657
00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:59,600
joy.
They put real joy in there.

658
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:00,840
Have you ever read the hiding
place?

659
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,920
They they ministered to women in
the worst of circumstances and

660
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,080
they just always had the
ability, the courage, the grit.

661
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,760
You know, like says like Jesus,
he set his face like Flint.

662
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,560
It was like quite an Isaiah that
talks about you can kind of see

663
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,720
it in the line.
You sound resolutely for

664
00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:16,720
Jerusalem.
He knew what was coming to him.

665
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,320
I know I've met a lot of women
who have that grip that I want

666
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,920
to learn from, who like, I am
fighting for peace.

667
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,800
I am fighting with someone else.
I'm choosing someone else's

668
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:27,800
battle.
I'm not giving up.

669
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,400
It's a kind of courageous love.
And you see it in Jackie

670
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,120
Pullinger and Heidi Baker and
Tracy Evans and I.

671
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,280
I could, I could give you a list
of biographies I recommend from

672
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,080
sort of Sisters of Faith.
But yeah, that's something I

673
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,720
want to learn from, is the grit
and the courage of women who are

674
00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:45,920
fighting for peace.
And maybe this is this is a book

675
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,120
or something that we could work
on in in Sat 7, because I think

676
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,080
across the Middle East region in
terms of the the names of people

677
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,680
that go on peace deals, as
you're mentioning are generally

678
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:58,800
always men.
But there's so many people

679
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,640
behind the scenes.
And maybe those are the stories

680
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,680
that in this next phase in terms
of people at media and Women of

681
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:10,480
Peace who are simply.
Building and being peacemakers

682
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,000
behind the scenes, but their
stories aren't necessarily being

683
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,240
told.
Maybe that's something that's a

684
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,760
challenge for us to actually put
right.

685
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:22,880
Yeah, definitely 100%.
We, we've kind of touched upon

686
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,240
this a little bit, thinking
about how God's heart for

687
00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:29,320
justice feeds very closely into
kind of peace and

688
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,880
reconciliation.
And some of those elements in

689
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,760
terms of women's involvement in
peace building and how that fits

690
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,800
into God's heart for equality in
in various different ways.

691
00:40:38,720 --> 00:40:42,040
But there is also the
consideration of how much we can

692
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:46,920
address trauma as part of our
making roads into

693
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:51,000
reconciliation, right?
And I know you both kind of

694
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,880
touch upon this a little bit in
your work, but there's one

695
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,680
quote, Martin, that I read in
your book that I just hope you

696
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,600
don't mind if I read out.
A true reconciliation requires

697
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,640
forgiveness, which is something
that is only possible with some

698
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,600
efforts towards rectifying
injustice.

699
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,440
I found that so powerful.
And really it, it's a direct

700
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:17,760
challenge, isn't it, To we can't
just kind of bulldoze ahead with

701
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,840
kind of fluffy notions of peace
and reconciliation without

702
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:27,120
addressing some of those real
consequences of a lack of peace

703
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,800
that have happened in the past.
And in order to move beyond

704
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:35,400
that, sometimes we have to be
quite self aware and and it

705
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,120
requires a certain, as you're
saying, down a certain courage

706
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:42,280
and and perhaps even a rawness
in order to really address some

707
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,440
of that kind of past trauma or
past injustice.

708
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:50,200
Yeah, I think it's good that you
bring this up again, Sophie,

709
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:55,000
because we we've maybe gone a
little bit too quickly over the

710
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,840
question of justice and went
straight to being advocates and

711
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,360
and fighting for the for justice
and the rights of other people,

712
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:10,080
which is key, very crucial.
But I mean, one of the reasons

713
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:17,120
why the efforts for peace
building in that lasts collapse

714
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:21,120
and have collapsed for years,
for centuries is because we

715
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:27,080
think that we can forget the
past that we can that peace,

716
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:31,080
peace building or peace making
or or you know, mediation is

717
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:35,000
just the act of the moment.
And unfortunately, with the act

718
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,640
of the moment, we tend to be
driven by selfish ambitions or

719
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:45,160
interests of persons or
communities or even nations and

720
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:51,640
just until the next elections.
But and that completely flies

721
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:58,040
over the importance of justice.
And so there can really not be

722
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:02,600
reconciliation that is lasting
without not only.

723
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:06,040
Yeah, I mean, justice sometimes
comes in the form of reparation.

724
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:11,880
Justice comes in the form of
confession, recognition by a

725
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:17,440
perpetrator.
And, and without these, you can,

726
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,680
you cannot, I mean, you can
forgive on a personal level if

727
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,600
you have that strength, but you
cannot establish peace and

728
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,480
reconciliation in the community
or in the country.

729
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:34,520
And, and until we understand
that, it's just not possible to

730
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,480
reach lasting peace.
And I'm thinking in particular

731
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,760
about the Middle East, my part
of the world.

732
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,600
Yeah, I mean, I'd love to ask
you, Martin, in those sorts of

733
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,800
situations where it feels like
there's a stalemate and people

734
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:53,800
are not willing to listen or
people are too aware of their

735
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,480
own trauma, how do you get a bit
of a breakthrough?

736
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,520
I mean, I mean, I've been in
situations where I've seen

737
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,680
amazing breakthrough and I've
been in situations where I feel

738
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:05,120
like we're not getting anywhere
here.

739
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,640
And I'm I'd love to know because
you've been in all sorts of

740
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,560
situations where you're working
with people.

741
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:12,480
How do you try and instigate
some of that?

742
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,480
Helping people understand each
other's trauma and, you know,

743
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,880
understand each other's?
Narrative, well, I'd just go go

744
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:21,560
again to the question of
narrative.

745
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:30,120
So you until you can get to the
place where conflicting parties

746
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:36,480
are willing to recognise first
of all, that their version of

747
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:41,600
the of their experience and of
their story is 1 narrative among

748
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,000
others.
And until they are willing to

749
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:49,280
listen to the narrative of the
other or the others, even if

750
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,440
they don't need to agree with
it, then there's very little

751
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:56,680
chance of a breakthrough in, in
mediation or in, in moving

752
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:58,480
towards peace and
reconciliation.

753
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,680
And so I, I work a lot with
narratives.

754
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:03,480
And I think that's extremely
important.

755
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:10,720
Narrative is not the same as
ultimate truth or objective

756
00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:14,240
truth.
Sometimes I, I like to use more

757
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,280
like a shocking affirmation.
And they say, and I, and I

758
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,160
affirm there is no truth.
There's no such a thing as

759
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:21,720
truth.
There's only narrative.

760
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,280
There's an event that has
happened.

761
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:29,280
And of course, in the fact that
it is an event, it has objective

762
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:33,120
truth, objective reality.
It has happened, but that truth

763
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,880
is, and the details of that
event are only accessible to

764
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:41,320
God.
Everyone else knows about the

765
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,960
event through a narrative,
through the way that it has been

766
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:48,040
told, through the way that it
has been transmitted from one

767
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,240
person to another or from one
generation to the to the other.

768
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:56,920
And so truth, again, a bit of a
shock.

769
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:01,240
Truth doesn't matter when it
comes to peace building and

770
00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:05,880
reconciliation because only
narrative stands and only

771
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,840
narrative shapes the identity of
different communities and the

772
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:13,320
perception that one community or
one individual has of others.

773
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,800
So of course, in the ultimate
truth matters.

774
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:21,160
But when it comes to the hard
work on the ground, what matters

775
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,560
is narratives.
And I need to be able to bring

776
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:30,480
those narratives face to face in
conflict, in in competition, in

777
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:35,040
diversity, and need to allow
them to remain in tension.

778
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:42,000
And I need to sit in that
tension and cultivate among the

779
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:47,000
parties that are in conflict the
ability to listen.

780
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:51,520
When you listen, you earn the
right to speak.

781
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:56,600
You earn to the right to express
your narrative if you're willing

782
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,640
to listen to another narrative.
And you mentioned the word

783
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,160
empathy early in the
conversation.

784
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:05,160
And I think empathy is probably
one of the most important

785
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:09,880
components of these processes.
Empathy means you're able to put

786
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:14,480
yourself in the body and, and
shoes of another person and

787
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,760
really see what they're going
through, even if you disagree

788
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,760
with with what with their
position or their perspective on

789
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,240
things.
And from a psychological

790
00:47:25,240 --> 00:47:28,560
perspective, I have a friend who
works in who teaches in

791
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,280
developmental psychology and
works on emotion.

792
00:47:31,720 --> 00:47:35,640
And I learned from him that
empathy is the highest level of

793
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:40,080
maturity in a person of
emotional maturity and maturity

794
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:44,400
all together, and it's the one
of the most important components

795
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,000
of resolving conflict.
So hopeful.

796
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:49,640
I totally agree.
That's a lovely quote.

797
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,320
I've often thought it's totally
that.

798
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,840
It's the highest form of, it's
the greatest thing we can do,

799
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:56,560
empathy, and it requires
imagination.

800
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,360
It's another thing that Shane
Claiborne once said is that

801
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,240
violence is for those who've
lost their imagination.

802
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,640
It requires creativity.
It requires imagination to step

803
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,720
into the shoes of someone else.
I feel like empathy is a sort of

804
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:15,120
marriage of imagination and
creativity, but also with love.

805
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:17,880
And when you've got those two
together and you're able to sort

806
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,200
of, and obviously you're not,
you can never totally live

807
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,680
someone else's narrative, but to
make the effort in your mind to

808
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,720
go into that and even
physically.

809
00:48:26,720 --> 00:48:30,880
So I know people and Sammy, for
example, some of his, he and his

810
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,280
team who have experienced what
the Palestinians called the

811
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,560
Nakba, the catastrophe in 1948
when they were a lot of people

812
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:38,960
were killed and driven from
their homes.

813
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,240
That is a narrative he's very
aware of that he chose to step

814
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:43,600
into the narrative of the Jewish
people.

815
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:48,160
He went to Auschwitz on a on a
trip called Bearing witness to

816
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:52,600
see, to sort of step into the
trauma of the Jewish people.

817
00:48:53,240 --> 00:48:56,000
And he has Israeli friends who
have come and visited refugee

818
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,160
camps in the West Bank and, and
sort of stepped into the world.

819
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:03,680
And when you, when you really
physically step into as well as

820
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,840
mentally step into someone
else's world, that helps.

821
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,240
And I think sometimes we need to
help people with that journey of

822
00:49:09,240 --> 00:49:12,960
empathy to sort of create, you
know, sometimes that's just good

823
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,600
storytelling or it's creating
the spaces of hospitality like

824
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:19,320
you shared, where people can
feel safe to step into someone

825
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,280
else's narrative.
But also, I love the fact that

826
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,040
one of the things you said I
wanted to pick up on is that you

827
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:26,720
might not agree with someone
else's narrative.

828
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:30,240
And so one of the things that
I've learnt with the, the work

829
00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:32,760
I've done with Bridges for
Communities, my boss often used

830
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,360
to say, you'll have this idea of
living well with difference.

831
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:40,200
And actually we need to create a
space where you can disagree and

832
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,840
disagreement isn't conflict.
You can disagree and still love

833
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,360
and hear and understand the
narrative of the of the other

834
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:49,160
person.
I found that particularly with

835
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,720
conversations between Christians
and Muslims, I have a lot of

836
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:55,800
Muslims who we passionately
disagree with and various points

837
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:57,760
of theology.
But to be able to have a

838
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,080
disagreement, to be able to
challenge one another, to talk

839
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,800
about the big things of life and
not fall into conflict, still in

840
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,760
in the place of disagreement
here the other person's

841
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:08,960
narrative.
Choose respect, honour and love.

842
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,920
I think we can work this out
with dialogue, not conflict.

843
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:16,400
I think the world needs to see
that modelled disagreement with

844
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:20,200
compassion definitely 'cause it
it doesn't need to go to

845
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:20,760
conflict.
Yeah.

846
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:25,080
Absolutely.
And and that thinking around

847
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:29,320
empathy and how we need to have
empathy in order to kind of move

848
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:33,640
forwards in terms of peace and
reconciliation really is the the

849
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:37,160
exact opposite of you both talk
about this in your books.

850
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,960
But the role of fear and the
role of that fear plays in terms

851
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:45,240
of leading to that conflict in
the 1st place.

852
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,600
And what can you say about fear
being the best kind of recruiter

853
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:49,640
to extremism?
Wow.

854
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:55,480
And how we, we just, we, if we,
if we have fear, we, we can't

855
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:59,560
have empathy because we're too
focused on, you know, feeling

856
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,640
unsettled and uncertain and, and
being afraid of, of the other

857
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:04,840
group or the other person or
whatever it might be.

858
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:09,160
But in order to move towards
empathy, we have to let go of

859
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,440
that fear, don't we?
Yeah, because I mean, when

860
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,720
you're when you're scared, you
are putting yourself in the

861
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:18,080
shoes of the victim.
And so the other becomes the

862
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,280
aggressor and that's why you're
you're scared.

863
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,600
Whereas empathy is being able to
see how the other person feels

864
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,560
like the victim and you are the
aggressor.

865
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:33,360
And so they're really, it's very
difficult to practice empathy if

866
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,640
you are in a state of fear.
Yeah.

867
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:37,680
And Martin, just to pick up on
what you're saying about them

868
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:41,440
shaping the narratives.
We started this conversation

869
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,760
Often we're talking about do we
like reading a physical book or

870
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:49,880
a digital book?
And maybe the kind of parallel

871
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,600
to that that is that we used to
spend a lot of time in front of

872
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,280
people, relating with people
experiencing narratives

873
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,920
together.
But now the narrative is being

874
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:05,240
so shaped by digital culture, by
by media, the fast media, the 24

875
00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:07,760
hour media.
And we had sat seminar involved

876
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:10,920
in telling a different story,
trying to maybe counter some of

877
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:14,520
those those messages.
But that narrative that's been

878
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,600
shaped by so many different
platforms these days is

879
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:21,680
incredibly powerful and is
really telling people what to

880
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,360
think.
And they're not really, as you

881
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,440
were saying and stepping into
other people's shoes or or going

882
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:29,600
that distance to to to meet
people.

883
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:34,840
And I'm just interested or
curious to know actually, how do

884
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:38,760
you feel the power of media can
be used for good and to to

885
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:40,560
almost to reshape a different
narrative?

886
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:45,840
Good question.
I mean, one way is always to

887
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,560
seek out the the opposite
narrative.

888
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:52,640
Yeah.
I think one of the things I

889
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,520
often say about the sort of the
digital world in terms of the

890
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,960
algorithms that are forcing us
into a certain viewpoint is it's

891
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,160
not as new as we think.
And so the way our neural

892
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:05,120
pathways work, it's, you know,
survival of the busiest.

893
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,800
I think in neuroscience once
said, you know, if you it's a

894
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,800
bit like a cutting a groove in a
park, you know, if you just keep

895
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,360
on walking down that path where
you cut a sort of deep dirty

896
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:17,120
groove and then it becomes the
path of least, least resistance.

897
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,720
That's what happens in our
brains as you kind of ruminate

898
00:53:20,720 --> 00:53:24,920
and rehearse an angry narrative.
It's also what happens in our

899
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:28,640
communities when, you know, an
echo Chamber of people showing

900
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:29,920
the same thing.
It doesn't have to be in an

901
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:31,960
online community.
It can just be in the pub or a

902
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,160
coffee shop or, you know, in the
workplace.

903
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:36,480
And then the algorithms reflect
that.

904
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,200
And so it's just the same.
And I feel like that's why

905
00:53:41,240 --> 00:53:44,080
empathy is a bit of a resistance
to that.

906
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:47,080
It's a bit of a rebel to the
algorithms because you're

907
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,760
choosing to sort, to start
carving a different path.

908
00:53:52,240 --> 00:53:54,240
And often that's why I love the
story of a Good Samaritan

909
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:57,440
because now, you know, we talked
about this before.

910
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,760
If you've met just one person
who is going in the opposite

911
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:04,640
direction, and maybe in terms of
sharing the story, sharing the

912
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:08,040
story of the Good Samaritans, it
does just change things because

913
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:12,200
then you can't, you know, you
can't attach yourself purely to

914
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,240
a narrative of the other.
If you know one of those people,

915
00:54:15,240 --> 00:54:18,160
you know know a person from
another people group who you are

916
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,960
taught to hate, who was shown
you love, I would say one Good

917
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:25,480
Samaritan can be the hinge that
turns the narrative in a

918
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:30,000
different direction.
Yeah, I believe media.

919
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:36,360
So I mean very important agent
either of peace or of conflict.

920
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,440
And I think that's the
importance of set 7.

921
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:46,600
That's the that set 7:00 not
only has the potential, but has

922
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:52,200
been reshaping the narrative by
taking a stance where it

923
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:56,440
presents the life of Christians
in the in the Middle East in a

924
00:54:56,440 --> 00:55:00,320
way that is positive without
attacking anybody, without

925
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:03,520
wanting to replace someone else
because we're better.

926
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:08,800
It it has been reshaping this
narrative where first of all,

927
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:13,920
not presenting a narrative of
victimhood and secondly, not

928
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,960
presenting A narrative where we
are being aggressed and the

929
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:20,680
other is the aggressor.
And for me, this is what I find

930
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:24,960
attractive about SAT 7.
That's why I'm a huge fan and on

931
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:31,320
the International Council.
And in a way, I'll end on my

932
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:36,520
side with the this, the parable
of the, of the mustard seed and

933
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:40,560
which was in the same chapter in
Matthew 13 with the parable of

934
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:46,640
the 11 or the how do we call it
as yeah, the 11, right.

935
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:49,560
Yeah, yeah.
And and so they're, those two

936
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:53,120
parables are put side by side in
the Gospel of Matthew in chapter

937
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:56,680
13, because one of them
addresses men, the other

938
00:55:56,680 --> 00:56:01,160
addresses women, one of them
addresses the farmer, the other

939
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:04,760
a homemaker.
And so it really is addressing

940
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:08,560
everybody with the same message.
And both of them are symbols of

941
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:10,960
hospitality.
The small seed that becomes a

942
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:14,560
large tree where all of the
birds of the air come and take

943
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:20,160
refuge and shade the leaven in
the dough that is baked into

944
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:23,360
bread and then the the loaves of
bread.

945
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,520
And you look at the amount, it's
actually quite a large amount of

946
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:30,240
bread that is being baked there.
And it's warm and it's it's

947
00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:34,240
inviting and smells nice and it
brings people around the table.

948
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:41,160
And I think that Sat 7 for me is
this kind of it's it's an

949
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:44,640
enactment of this parable.
And that also is a demonstration

950
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:50,120
of what media can do as
providing a path towards peace

951
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:53,680
and reconciliation.
And what unfortunately, so many

952
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:57,760
media don't do because they keep
only bringing the stories of

953
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:02,400
conflict and, and creating more
enmity between people.

954
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:09,840
And you know, this is this, this
large tree and this basket of

955
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:13,920
warm bread is what it means for
me to be a peacemaker.

956
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:20,080
And gathering around these
elements in in hospitality is

957
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:24,320
what is a symbol of
reconciliation that we look for

958
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:26,920
and long for, long for.
Yeah.

959
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:29,080
Thank you for sharing that,
Martin, because we're kind of

960
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:31,560
coming to the end of our time
together today.

961
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:36,920
We like to round off with, if we
just have one thing that we'd

962
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:39,440
like our listeners to take away
from the conversation that we've

963
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,960
had today, what would it be?
I'll start with you, Martin, if

964
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:48,000
you just want to sum up into
one, one little key take away

965
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:51,800
for I guess I think it's really
useful for us to just, I mean,

966
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:53,920
and everyone's take away will be
different, but it's really

967
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:57,640
useful just to highlight
something that we can can do

968
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,760
practically, even if that's just
thinking about this more,

969
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:03,720
praying about it more, you know,
going and looking it up.

970
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:08,000
I feel like it's, it's a useful
thing for us to do and helps us

971
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:12,120
to kind of take this from a
passive consumption into an

972
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:16,000
active, an active movement of
something that we're doing

973
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:20,120
ourselves.
Well, for me, I think I've, I've

974
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,480
in a way, I've almost said
everything I wanted to, to say

975
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:29,600
with this, these parables of the
master seed and, and the parable

976
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:34,000
of the 11.
And that the encouraging thing

977
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:38,120
about this is that we are all
invited to, to be this and to

978
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:42,040
practice this doesn't need
special technique, but it does

979
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:47,440
need a big heart and the ability
to think about ourselves as

980
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:51,240
welcoming people and not people
of exclusion, but people of

981
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:55,480
hospitality.
And so everyone is invited to be

982
00:58:55,480 --> 00:59:00,200
a peacemaker in that way and to
work towards God's all embracing

983
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:02,840
peace and towards
reconciliation.

984
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:07,920
I'll pick up on that that phrase
a big heart I think is important

985
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:09,560
for me.
I think I was going to say

986
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:12,720
empathy, the imagination to step
into someone else's shoes.

987
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:15,120
But actually think for me, the
take away is deeper than that.

988
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:19,400
It's it's a narrative of love.
And so I feel like the fuel for

989
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:24,240
that is for one is particularly
as Christians to know that we

990
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:25,960
are loved.
And this is one of the things

991
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:28,280
that Jesus had really clear.
He knew, you know, the beginning

992
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:30,640
of his ministry is baptism.
We hear those words.

993
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:32,880
This is my beloved son whom I
love with him.

994
00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:34,760
I'm well pleased.
That's before he'd done anything

995
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:38,440
in terms of his ministry and he
went in with that bomb proof

996
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:41,480
affirmation of God's love.
And we need to know that for us

997
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:43,800
it's not of this.
You know, I say, if you want to

998
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:46,560
picture God, picture the running
father to the prodigal son.

999
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,360
He's done nothing to earn that
love, but he knows he's loved

1000
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:52,280
come what may.
And he actually went out to the

1001
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:55,160
to the older son as well.
So as a matter of your goody 2

1002
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:58,560
shoes or a total prodigal, you
are loved because you're loved

1003
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:01,400
because of God's character.
And I think if you know that

1004
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:05,360
love in yourself, then it gives
you the fuel to pay that

1005
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:07,920
forward.
And actually, you know, that

1006
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:11,560
line in, in the New Testament,
perfect love casts out fear.

1007
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:14,640
And I feel like, as, as Martin
said, fear is what underpins a

1008
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,720
lot of the kind of lack of
empathy and a lot of a conflict.

1009
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:22,120
The antithesis about is love.
And if you know if you can

1010
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:26,920
overcome fear with love, then
then peacemaking will flow as a

1011
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:28,840
beautiful result.
Absolutely.

1012
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:33,080
And my take out in a sense kind
of connects and takes that

1013
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:37,160
forward to say, I, I have a
responsibility to be a

1014
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:40,720
peacemaker, but I have a
responsibility to kind of deal

1015
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,320
with some of the issues in my
own life with God.

1016
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:47,800
So that actually I, I, I have
felt that peace, that, that

1017
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:52,200
sense of restitution and
forgiveness and salvation.

1018
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:57,000
And that and outworking of that
is it compels me to to love the

1019
01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:59,320
other and to actually know if
I'm loved by God the Father,

1020
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:02,640
then so is the stranger in my
life, or so is the person I

1021
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:06,360
disagree with.
And I have a, you know, it's a

1022
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:08,680
command.
It's an imperative to go and

1023
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:11,800
practice peacemaking.
And if we get it wrong or, you

1024
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:15,480
know, we're so afraid these days
of saying the wrong thing or, or

1025
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:18,280
maybe even offending, but
actually we just, we need to

1026
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,880
take some risks and, and you
know, say, you know, faith is

1027
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:24,920
spelt, you know, RSK.
So, you know, take a few risks,

1028
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:28,280
try being a peacemaker and you
might, you know, you might

1029
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:29,960
offend someone or you might get
some things wrong.

1030
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:33,440
But, but actually most of the
times people are very, very

1031
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:34,840
accepting.
And I actually like people

1032
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:37,800
crossing over the road and
actually saying, you know, can I

1033
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:39,720
talk to you?
Can I, can I be your friend?

1034
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:41,480
Yeah.
Yeah, that's beautiful.

1035
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:45,280
I love that we're all loved.
And yeah, we're all invited to

1036
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:47,280
be part of God's work.
Brilliant.

1037
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:49,960
Thank you so much, Martin Dad,
for joining us Around the TABLE.

1038
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:50,720
Yeah.
Thank you.

1039
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:57,280
Very much.
Thanks for joining us around the

1040
01:01:57,280 --> 01:01:59,000
table.
If you enjoyed today's

1041
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,320
conversation, make sure to hit
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1042
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:05,280
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1043
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:07,720
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1044
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:11,120
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1045
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:17,520
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1046
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:20,600
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